Talk:Dimensional Evolution
True Evolution? This is interesting. Its intriguing enough that I'd like to pose an observation and a question. Though Aizen and possibly Ichigo both experienced an elevation in their supposed power, I noted no real difference in what I would consider the most fundamental of any transition to a higher plane or state of existence--- that of perception. Their senses didnt really change, only they could now sense each others powers, and beyond that nothing else. If anything Aizen's quotes were more like . . . he was postulating if what he was experiencing was indeed a new state of existence at least with regards to power, but he was unsure of it himself. Given that, I don't believe Aizen nor Ichigo actually ascended to a new realm, rather the one they were one may have broadened, if only a little bit. When I began writing up Aeon Eiz Erebos, it was largely a thought exercise in creating a new form of magic, different from Kido. As a friend of Nanja, if I ever hoped to stand as an equal with regards to magic, using the system or perhaps the train of thought pioneered by him would only ever push me towards his shadow, forever chasing it. No, instead I had to devise an entirely new system by which magic and its execution could be defined. Hence the Apocrypha of the Five Worlds. But in that exercise, I discovered something very fundamental to the way I percieved power, and that notion, that axiom is perception. If you think about it, every major invention and innovation in human culture was a result of a broadened awareness of the world. Being able to see interactions, observe the different forces that exist, the analysis of those phenomena is what allowed us to harness even more power than had ever thought. So if perception is the means to power, then how must a mage, a true mage of immense skill and talent, how do they see the world? I reasoned that their perceptions of reality must be far different than our own, that their ability to percieve the imperceptible, the impossible, the strange is what set them apart. Human senses can only get you so far in terms of understanding, and unless those are broadened you are forever bound by stringent limitations. Going back to Ichigo and Aizen, from what I and I presume the audience could gather, nothing about their perceptions actually changed, therefore their realm of power was only "ascended" insofar that it was simply bigger than before. Hence why I've changed my focus from raw power to broadening perceptions. Auryx Bandheer is a child of that train of thought. Its why his article is full of questions, of inquiries, of his own observations regarding the state of his own existence, of death itself and ultimately the aspect that defines him most--- madness. I've yet to properly put it on paper but with regards to my magic system that I developed for Aeon Eiz Erebos, the only evolution for a Mage was through a revelation or rather a change in their perceptions, otherwise they could not advance to the next World. Each World of Magic denoted an increasing degree of awareness, a perception that was unique to the individual but nonetheless served as the cornerstone for their advancement and evolution as mages. So how should we define a proper Dimensional Evolution? From my perspective, a being who exists or at least percieves events in Four Dimensions is someone like... Yhwach, who could see all future events. Or perhaps someone who can see every choice you've made up until this moment, can see the past behind you as easily as they see the present. Shouldn't inhuman perception along with inhuman power be the requirement for a true dimensional evolution? What are your thoughts? Do you think differently? Do you believe that power in of itself can elevate one to a new dimension without the being in question even being aware of such a change? --- Abysmal Shadows (Talk) 07:26, December 10, 2016 (UTC) :Well, I'll start first by saying that I started the article primarily because this was a concept Kubo introduced for only... what, five seconds? But what made it interesting to me is that every series has their system of how existence or quality of power is measured. In Dragon Ball, you have the idea of "God Ki" for instance. A realm of ki completely different to that of mortal ki. In Naruto, the feeling of chakra becomes entirely different the closer one gets to the bloodline of Kaguya Otsutsuki. As it gets closer to the original source, it seemingly... "evolves" into a different type of chakra. One that is more potent, carries a different feel, hell, it even grants one the ability of flight with all the bijuu, as seen in Madara, Obito, Naruto, and of course, Kaguya. Another series I recently started watching, Matoi the Sacred Slayer, also presents the idea of different dimensions. 24 in total, I believe. And different beings that exist in those higher dimensions cannot interact with lower dimensional beings unless they willingly go down there, or lower beings manage to go up through Divine Union. :Similarly so, the only real depiction of how realms of power work, at least in the context of Bleach's canon, is this shoddy concept of "dimensions" Kubo threw in. By Aizen's acclaim, he reached a realm of power that put him so far beyond others, they couldn't just not sense him, but as Isshin said, the feeling was like Aizen didn't even exist. As if Isshin was hitting something that doesn't exist and yet was standing right in front of him. I don't think that's something you can write off as simply having an assload of more power. There's a feeling, a quality, to Aizen's power that put him in an entirely new realm of existence. The same was seen later in Ichigo. Aizen couldn't even sense him, nor measure his current power. Not only that, but Ichigo did something that should've been impossible: he smashed through Aizen's Kurohitsugi with his bare hand. I really don't see how to justify that, save for simply saying Ichigo weaponized his plot armor then and there, other than the simple fact that because Ichigo stood in a dimension higher than Aizen, Aizen could not interfere with Ichigo, even with a spell that should've, by all counts, smashed Ichigo into a singularity through gravity. :Yhwach is a tough case to talk about. His existence disregards the rules Kubo set forth with Aizen at the end of the Arrancar arc. Because, never has any character seemed to have difficulty sensing Yhwach's reiatsu, even after he absorbed the Soul King. Yet, as you said, he has a power which grants him fourth-dimensional vision, as he can see the world beyond time. But did Aizen or Ichigo have this level of perception? Despite supposedly reaching this "fourth dimension"? I do call what Aizen got as the fourth dimension because in his quote, he said "By achieving evolution into a dimension separate from Shinigami, both Shinigami and humans have become unable to feel my reiatsu unless I voluntarily lower my level and allow them to interfere, in the same way that a two-dimensional being is unable to interfere with a third-dimensional being." The wording may have been a coincidence, but if you follow the context of that quote to the letter, he was making it sound like he was relating humans being unable to perceive Shinigami as a two-dimensional being being unable to perceive a three-dimensional being. So that only makes me believe he was considering himself a fourth-dimensional being. :But getting down to it, you raise a lot of interesting points which make me question some of the thoughts I've been having about this concept. Perhaps it can be both. I don't think Ichigo nor Aizen intentionally rose to a "new dimension". Aizen seemed to just go along with it as the Hogyoku evolved him, and Ichigo, hell, we definitely know he didn't intentionally reach that level. How he did it, I have no clue, I wouldn't mind hearing your take on how that happened. But as I outlined above, I don't think it can just be called a power increase. Their power has an entirely different quality, a characteristic which cannot be intefered with by lower beings. But at the same time, you have Yhwach, who doesn't display this sort of characteristic, yet possesses his "The Almighty" which pretty much makes him a god and someone who can view things in four dimensions. :I suppose one way of looking at it is that there are different ways to "evolve" to higher dimensions. And that was something I considered in the beginning. When I assigned "Self-Cultivation" as a section, I considered how those who have become Grandmasters in the Zankensoki might reach higher dimensions. Hakudaka have the Four Realms of Hakuda, for instance. I still don't know yet how to translate it into this concept perfectly, but using Seireitou as an example, he demonstrates an evolution to a higher dimension when he invokes his four Mitama forms in Kihaku. For Hoho Grandmasters, I would imagine you could translate your concept of the Blank Space as a higher dimension. Zanjutsu Grandmasters can reach higher dimensions as well, as Ichigo displayed from how he fused with his Zanpakuto. And then Kido Grandmasters, they probably evolve through revelation. :You could say it depends on the nature of the power. After all, "perception" is itself a form of power. We could even use the physics definition of power, "an amount of work done over a period of time" which you can say is what perception is, perceiving something. Hakuda, Zanjutsu, and Hoho are all physical abilities, so evolution comes from transcending their abilities to a level by which those of a lower dimension cannot hope to comprehend. One idea is the Empty Fist you and I talked about a long time ago. Normal Hakudaka would never be able to comprehend nor perceive the Empty Fist, but higher levels would eventually be able to register it, maybe even see it. So going with that, when it comes to Kido, which is something that is learned, studied, practiced, refined, et cetera. Revelation, which ties together all of those things, would lead to higher dimensions of thought, of knowledge, of wisdom, and thus, higher dimensions of magic. :So going to your question, can it happen without being aware of it having happened? Of course. Martial artists never realize at the time that they've reached a new level of ability, not until they compare it to someone lower than them or equal to them that they thought was superior and then realize how far they've come. And the same goes for something as radically different as Kido. I mean, after all, people don't intend to have a revelation. They don't wake up one day and say, "I'm going to have a paradigm-shifting revelation today." It just happens. Maybe they realize it at the time, or maybe it takes them a while before they fully understand the groundbreaking realization they've come across. Maybe some even deny it, or think they're going crazy, or attempt to refute it desperately because it conflicts with their previous paradigm. Revelations don't mean they'll accept it as such. :I hope all of that didn't come across as gibberish, I just started writing a response and it sort of derailed. --Silver-Haired Seireitou (Dosvidaniya, tovarisch.) 08:12, December 10, 2016 (UTC)